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mr-jazzman
All you need is instant gratification. You desire nothing more. -Tesseract

Jonathan Doemel @mr-jazzman

Male

Engineer

Houston

Joined on 6/6/07

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The Fatal Flaw with Voting

Posted by mr-jazzman - June 27th, 2009


Here's a few things I understand: This is not the first post ever in the history of NG that discusses the voting system. I did my homework and saw that there were over 100 threads in the forum that discussed 0-voting alone. EVERYBODY complains about it, and on the same token, it happens to EVERYONE, no matter what media or genre they submit to. A lotta people say "the voting system doesn't matter and those who care about just suck at life," but that's just a way to shut up the people who annoyingly complain and compile thread after thread about zero-voters because their grand opus didn't stay on top for more than 30 seconds. I think many agree that the voting system can be used as a method to gain advice, learn from mistakes, and improve the overall quality of everything that comes to this site, but the number itself, on the scale from 0 to 5, should also represent the quality of a piece of work. THAT's where most people get butt-sore over it: When their work is sitting at a 2.7 instead of a 4.5 because some random person that they don't even know comes by and gives it a low score because they're trying to gain experience and just haphazardly click (with the audio and art portals it's totally different, because there's absolutely no reason for the community to spend their time there, unless they need a song for their flash, in which case they just go to the top-scoring songs; nobody wants to scroll through 100 pages of crap just to find 1 song that might actually be epic but was voted on unfairly in the beginning, knocking the life out of it from the get-go). Just the fact that people have been complaining about this stuff for years on end tells me that there is a flaw in the system. I'd say before the decade's over, the people who run the site need to do something about it - in essence, a new beginning.

In my own opinion, the voting system just isn't fair. First, the fact that people can vote without reviewing tells me it's just a gimmick to rack up your experience points so that your vote is worth more. Second, the fact that voting is weighted based on how much you've voted in the past leaves the door wide open for bad behavior. It's extremely easy to get away with too because the only way you can flag people is if their work is dishonest and plagiarized; the system tried to implement protection for submitters, but it doesn't counteract the voting flaws whatsoever.

I think it's also interesting that a site dedicated to providing free media would base its system of giving an opinion on assumptions. They assume that people will be honest if they have a high voting privilege, but that's not necessarily true; people are still people. They assume that an item that is flagged by someone with "great experience" knows exactly what they're doing. They assume that high-level voters will vote for what they like, and that they control the site. Do you catch my drift? Dishonesty and anger is rampant throughout any online community (WoW, Facebook, Myspace and YouTube are all perfect excamples), but the assumptions and power that people can get on this site promote the bad behavior even further. In fact, I can almost guarantee that someone will bash this exact post that I'm putting up just because they can. It's utterly inevitable, and personally I don't mind. I just expect it because a good 50 to 60 percent of the people using this site don't give a shit about anything because they're bored and have nothing to do. They don't realize that this is a place to submit a work of art and gain an underground fanbase. A few great and popular things have come from this site that are now a part of everyday life after all, including Alien Hominid, ParagonX9, Madness, etc. Why should dishonest people hurt the honest ones who are trying to achieve a piece of fame?

I don't know what good it does explaining what could be done to cut down on the dishonesty, seeing as this post will be erased from the attention of the site in mere minutes, but something needs to be said. I would say instead of voting on a scale of 0 to 5, we could vote "Thumbs Up," "Thumbs Down," and "Thumbs Sideways," because you can only feel 1 of 3 different things when you vote for something: You either love it, hate it, or don't particularly care for it either way. The scale on the review is obsolete, because you could technically be dishonest there if you wanted, voting 10 on your review but 2 or 3 on the actual quality of the work. I don't know if this bugs many people, but when a song has, say, 10 votes but no one has reviewed it yet, or it has 30+ votes and only about 4 bothered to leave anything behind, tells me that people just piss their time away here; if a person wants to have an opinion on your work, they should be willing to leave a comment about it for your own betterment. Users should also have the ability to flag the dishonest people and get rewarded for it, which would force users to either leave a funny, helpful or critical comment - there is no reason to leave behind something stupid or retarded. In theory, the weighted voting makes perfect sense, even though there will be those people that naturally abuse it, but I think a shrunken scale would allow the honest ones to neutralize the negative effects better, especially with the threat of people who could catch you abusing. In essence, the better-quality stuff would have more thumbs up, while the lower-quality stuff would have more thumbs down.

The greatest flaw in the whole system is how fast new content cycles through the list. It makes sense that there are hundreds of submissions that come onto the site, but they only get a few minutes in the limelight. In order for new submissions to undergo a fairer process, they should be cycled through the registry for at least one day, and then voted on that way. The final score for the submission by the end of the day reflects its placement within the genre. This allows a submission to more easily be fairly judged.

Alright, that's pretty much it. I realize that any system is going to have its flaws because of dishonesty, but it's minimizing the potential for misconduct that's key. As of right now, the site allows for too much bad behavior.


Comments

what if you can't vote on a submission until you have spent XX amount of time on said page like, say, 3 mins? that is more than enough time to watch a submission PLUS who the fuck would want to wait 3 mins at a time just for experience points? Wow, that is a very sensible solution.

it's not a bad idea, but what if someone's submission rocked right away and you wanted to let them know that, not just sit there and wait for a timer to go off? or what if it really sucked and you wanted to let them know? that would defeat that purpose, but only if the timer was that long. if it was more like 30 seconds and nothing has happened yet with whatever submission you wanted to vote on, that probably would make more sense.

So you're saying the biggest flaw in the voting system is that flashes can get blammed and not everyone may get a chance to be known because all o their stuff gets blammed?

yes, that is a major flaw. it's a different story if someone repeatedly submits crap, but the way it works right now, nobody can weed through it and determine what's what. there are only a few names out there that are really known, and i have a feeling it was with a lot of time and luck, with the average user having to have submitted several works for about 5 to 7 years, and getting lucky enough that one of their works actually got a decent vote in the beginning so it would turn up on the genre's first page every time. then again, there is so much talent that has been submitted to NG, I mean you're talking about a little over 1 million people who actively put stuff out here. it's definitely not an easy business. the guys who run NG need to keep in mind that there is legendary stuff made from the past, but the future will also have legendary stuff. when you put those two together, the list of good stuff is seemingly endless. i guess what i'm trying to say is that even though this is a major flaw, the user needs to persevere and be diligent about submitting if they want their name known, and everything needs to be good quality, regardless of the voting system. however, the system as it stands now discourages that because every time someone feels they produce a good-quality work, it gets blammed straight to the bottom of the barrel and doesn't have a fighting chance later on. the site doesn't allow for an exchange very well; it's resistive to long-term change.

lot of good points made here, didnt read all of it "Skimmed...I know, I am flame worthy, sue me :D"

my suggestion based on your complaints is...

what if we took away the weighted voting and only used it with flagging "since people who see more submissions van tell whats spam and what is'nt" then we'd end up with a system that's more or less the same as the art/ music forums and wouldnt have people turning the voting system into a JRPG grind :D

i did think about that for a minute while writing the post, and it's a valid solution, but then NG becomes semi-communist, which I'm positive it would resist at all costs. if everyone had the same voting privileges, that means the veteran would have the same amount of power as the noob. seniority is extremely important in this online community because even though there is the half that is dishonest, there are plenty of honest people out there trying to have a voice. commie voting rights would take away that voice in my opinion. something else i didn't really talk about is that when someone has more voting power, they need to be looked at more as leaders and examples, and maybe THEY could be the ticket to the next big thing here. imagine if the guy who made the awesome series said he liked your flash and was willing to help you rise to the top. that's something really unique that no other website has. NG, in essence, shapes leaders out of people similar to characters in an RPG. the problem is, like you said, the people who want to turn it into a JRPG grind, which are mostly the new people to the website or people obsessed with achieving a huge voting privilege. that to me isn't right because the site takes real-life works and pits them against video game personalities, like if you made your corvette fight charizard. no one in their right mind would do that! a small group of the community holds power, and the immense rest individually hold none, but together they hold more than any one user can imagine. i think the experience idea is extremely vital, but there has to be a sub-system that prohibits misconduct and the impish behavior of killing peoples' works. ultimately, the things that will improve the site are diminishing dishonesty while encouraging honesty simultaneously.

Hi! While listening this mornig the song "Susano" (one of the characters of , to whose author you submitted a comment, i saw your post and i think you're serious amd compromised with solutions, so i like and that's one reason for me to take time and comment.
First of all, say that my english isn't as good as i'd like, i'm spanish, but i'll try to exxplain the best i can.
1- I've read all your post and i agree, altough i don't reach to understand all of it.
2- I'd like to comment you my method of voting, in order to know your opinion about it, if you don't mind, and rectify if it's convenient.
When i heat a song that i like veriy much, i vote 4/5; when i don't like it, i vote in order to average its score around the scoring i think it's fair (that's logical, obvious); and when i think is bad, i vote it 0 -or even 1 if it has a 0-.
3- I consider myself honest, but perhaps i should change a litle my way of voting.

That's all for the moment. Good Luck!

thank you for your comment =) you seem like a fair voter, because you vote on what you like, NOT out of jealousy or trying to rank high. you're the kind of person that dishonest voters should i try to emulate. i congratulate you because you help prove my case.

P.S. Hablo español un poco, pero no así =`( Me tomó tres años de español en la escuela pero no recuerdo mucho. Tuve que usar un traductor de algunos de estos lol, soy tan malo.